The saving work of Jesus is central to the Christian faith. But how does it actually work? The subject of the Atonement has been wrestled with for millennia, theologians trying to make sense of the many ways that scripture explains the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. How does this God-man's existence translate to eternal salvation for humanity? And who's included? How far does it stretch? This episode, we look at the Christus Victor model of the Atonement, some of it's strengths and gaps, and what we can learn from it.
The saving work of Jesus is central to the Christian faith. But how does it work? The subject of the Atonement has been wrestled with for millennia, theologians trying to make sense of the many ways that scripture explains the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. How does this God-man's existence translate to eternal salvation for humanity? And who's included? How far does it stretch?
Join Alex, Chris and Jo (and maybe some special guests along the way) as they examine the many theories and understandings of the Atonement, and what that can mean for us today.
This episode, we look at the Christus Victor model of the Atonement, some of it's strengths and gaps, and what we can learn from it.
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Hello and welcome back to our latest episode in ‘High and Lifted Up’, which is our series on discussions about the Atonement, which is very exciting. Even more exciting is that this time around we have welcomed Alex back. Hello, Alex. Oh, hey, guys. Special guest Alex Walker in the house.
Thank you for accepting me back on this podcast. Pastoral assistant Alex Walker. Yeah, so you've got lots to say this time around, and you can say with authority. I can? Yeah.
Yeah, you can. Now take me seriously. Excellent. Yeah, well, careful, because it cuts both ways. Christopher, his recently appointed elder, Chris authority now resides around the table.
It's just a relief for me because the pressure is off. That's true. I should say welcome Jo as well. That's good to be here. Thank you for being back.
So if you've been following along, you would have heard our previous episode where we introduced this series. We are talking about the atonement, this idea that Jesus died for our sins and exploring how exactly that works. What are the sort of different perspectives on how that is achieved and what difference does it make to us? And, yeah, I'm really excited to move into our first deep dive into one of those models of atonement that we spoke about. And this week we have Christus Victor.
Wow. How's your Latin? Chris and Victor? Yeah. Don't be confused.
Not two first names. You laugh, but we made that joke last time. Okay, thanks for listening to the previous. We're recording on the same day. On the same day.
I would have just said that Alex doesn't listen to the episodes. That is true. I don't like listening back to my own voice. So, yeah. So we're going to dig into this one.
We'll go through a little bit of where this theory came from, some of the sort of history behind it, look at some of the key ideas, some of the scriptural bases for it, and then kind of package that all together. Look at some of the maybe criticisms or shortcomings and pros and cons where that ultimately lands and maybe how it possibly fits with some of the others. But no spoilers. So we won't go too far. We'll get to that before long.
Yeah, yeah. But Jo, where do you think we should start with? Well, I suppose just simply defining the general view of it. Is that so? It's Latin for the victory of Christ.
Christ is conqueror. Christ is conqueror, yeah. And it essentially emphasizes Christ's victory over and the defeat of sin, death. Satan commonly summed up as the powers and this defeat of them. And this victory is accomplished through his life.
Through his death and through his resurrection and his ascension. So you have to have all four of those. They're a key part of this model in that it's very. Well, we'll get to it, but there's a significant holistic view to it as a cosmic or universal aspect to it. And it's quite often connected to a strong emphasis around the kingdom of God and the inauguration of the kingdom of God in Jesus life and ministry and that kind of being vindicated through his death and resurrection and ascension.
So it's in a nutshell. Yeah. So people sort of have only maybe come across this briefly or heard only a little bit about it. They're probably aware of the sort of more recent kind of development or formulations of this theory. I mean, the name Christus Victor really only came about in terms of terminology in the mid 20th century, but only 100 years ago.
Yeah. In the world of theology is recent, even though it's Latin. But it does have some roots that go back a lot further than that, doesn't it, Alex? Yes. So as maybe like a formal model.
Yeah, like you said, we're only used to it from recent years, in the recent hundred years, and we'll discuss a bit of that history soon. But it definitely has some of its roots in motifs that have been consistent throughout church history all the way back to the early church fathers had themes of Christus Victor in their own atonement models, which could be quite multifaceted at times and weren't often reduced to, like, the one model that we might be familiar with as we list them off today. So as early as, like, second and third centuries. As early as that. So we're talking about Irenaeus and Origen.
Chrysostom. Yeah, Gregory. And Gregory, both great. Both Gregory's. All the Gregs and a modern Greg as well.
But we'll get to him. Good old modern Greg, too old Greg. But yes. So there's definitely those, like, especially the overarching themes of Christ's victory, overdose, the powers of death. Yeah.
So it's interesting, right, because last episode, for your benefit, Alex, as well as the audience, we did talk about, you know, the fact that in the early church particularly, there wasn't kind of a consensus. There wasn't, didn't seem even a desire to land on a specific explanation for the mechanism of the atonement. But even that being said, this theme of Christ's victory over the powers that was achieved at the cross and through his resurrection is a bit of a common thread that kind of unites some of the different perspectives that came out of that period. Yeah, right through into the reformation as well. Like Luther and Calvin both had elements of this in how they kind of formulated their bigger kind of theological work.
Yeah, definitely. And right through. Even Bart has elements of it in his, which is arguable. But I think the way that he kind of brings his particular views, there's definitely this is brought into it. Yeah.
So, Jo, do you want to unpack, maybe just briefly, some of the real key ideas that sit behind that headline package? Yes. So essentially, it picks up on the pretty significant, which we talked about a little bit last week, the pretty significant kind of spiritual warfare and kingdom motif view that runs right through from Genesis three. When we talked last week about last episode, about the kind of the conflict, the impact, the punishment and hurt and injury backwards and forwards between the powers, the powers of darkness and God's people, God's person, right through into, you know, we looked at Isaiah and the suffering servant and that kind of thing. So it does pick up on that spiritual warfare kind of concept and how that gets seen the whole way through scripture.
So early on, the powers are represented by things like, you know, the waters, you know, we talked about in our Genesis series and other times, you know, the chaos waters, the forces of uncreation, are these powers that God is in conflict with, not in equal and opposite battle. It's not a yin and yang kind of environment. God is the one who will overcome. But there's this opposition, other gods, particularly in the Old Testament narratives, these kind of rival lesser gods in other nations that are up against Israel's creator God. And then as we get to the New Testament, we see this pretty significant kind of progression of focusing the powers down to a single kind of entity in the Satan, the adversary.
This kind of spiritual force of evil and uncreation and chaos and destruction that kind of gets wrapped into sin and then also mapped into the kind of the force behind world powers and world rulers. So Caesar and Herod and Pilate become kind of the front people for these powers behind which Paul then rolls into the spiritual power was off the back of the gospel narratives to be these spiritual forces of evil that sit behind the forces of chaos and sin and uncreation in the world. And so that's kind of where it sits in a biblical framework, and there's lots of scriptures we can pull out about that. But what it rolls forward into is if. And where it works into the kingdom view is if Jesus is vindicated as Messiah and so subsequently king through both his death and his resurrection.
Then in the ascension, where it says he sat down at the right hand of the father, that's riffing off psalms two to go. He's now co regent, co king with God the father. And so, as the king, he's ushered in his kingdom. And so, like Caesar would come and conquer other lands. Now, Jesus the king is conquering lands, and so his people are his agents of conquering and overcoming opposition to God's kingdom.
That's kind of the basic nutshell of it from a scriptural point of view. There's more that we can go into, but, yeah, yeah, that's cool, I guess. So just to unpack that a little bit, the first question, which maybe we don't see sometimes, if we've been sitting in sort of churchy Christianese spaces for a long time, but conceptually, there's part of that that doesn't make sense on the face of it. Like, how is it that the death of the son of God and even the resurrection, which is great, but ultimately the son of God suffering and dying, how does that achieve victory? How does that fit together in this schema?
It's the way you have to take death, resurrection and ascension together. It seems to be that the proponents would say that, and this is where, in fact, as we'll find as we work through, there's elements of multiple models that kind of all work together. And some proponents of this as the kind of unifying theme or kind of theory would bring in areas of what we're going to talk about in our next episode about substitutionary atonement and things like that, where so there is a conquering of death and sin through Jesus death and resurrection. So he breaks the powers of those things by dying, by taking the full force, all those forces and still coming out the other end. Yeah.
And then by being raised exalted God. Yes. He shows that they have now lost their power and their victory is lost in them. And we read it out at the end of first corinthians, your death, where is your sting? And then by being raised, which Isaiah kind of picks up on again, he'll see his descendants and the light will come and all those kind of things.
That's the vindication that that death is now conquered because death couldn't stop him and keep him in the grave. So that's where he demonstrates the power of death is broken, so that those who would then come into that kingdom receive the same benefit that he has made for them. So in some sense, the, that breaking of the power of death and of sin is passed on to those who. It's a right of the kingdom. From what I probably am not doing that justice it deserves.
But that's the sense I get as I read through multiple voices around this. Yeah, interesting. Alex, did you have any thoughts? Yeah, I think something that makes the Christus Victor model maybe stand out a bit from other atonement models is like you've mentioned, Jo, it's very holistic in the sense that it does require the birth, the death, resurrection, ascension and all those. And the Old Testament.
And the Old Testament, and the whole life and mission of Jesus. As we'll see in future episodes, a lot of atonement models focus quite heavily on, and rightfully so, to be fair, on the cross and on the death of Jesus, which is very important, of course, as well in the Christus Victor model. But something that Christus Victor model does well, I think, is it encompasses all elements of Jesus and his life to lead up to that moment as kind of like a turning point moment in the drama of scripture. And it's very holistic in that sense, where some other models might not be. So they have different emphasis elsewhere.
Yeah, I heard expressed that one of the benefits of this, for those, particularly who hold to the gospels as they are not just the gospel as a concept, is that it doesn't leave anything on the warehouse floor. There's no offcuts, because everything that the gospel writers include, all matters. It's all part of his. That's right. Two of the gospels, Matthew and Luke, they open with, effectively, even after the first little introduction, they open with baptism and then temptation of Jesus, this struggle with Satan and the powers, and then feeds into a ministry which is not only announcing the kingdom has come, but actually doing these little demonstrations of those defeats, building up and building up to that apex point at the cross.
Yeah. And so you don't have to wonder, why are those stories there in this model? They're all showing part of the progression of what Jesus is doing. I think the other thing that kind of, I think, is a benefit to this, that it. And this is why I think maybe now, as it's an established kind of model, people looking back through church history and seeing these elements, is that it does add a cosmic scope to the atonement.
And so when we say cosmic, we mean kind of universal. But I'm not meaning universal, like universalism, where everyone gets in. And so when we come to the extent of the atonement, that's a different conversation. But it does cause us to stop thinking about salvation. And Jesus's work about, what does that mean for me and my problems and my sin and my brokenness?
But he's reconciling creation to himself. And it. So, you know, all of the forces are all wrapped up in this model. And so it's not just a, how do I deal with my sin? That kind of.
That. And I forget the phrase, but the reformation kind of catch cry about, you know, how does. How does a sinner find themselves back with God? How do I deal with my sin? It actually is.
But how do we reconcile creation to the creator? Which is a bit more of the. Yeah. And that really is one of the major thrusts of Christus Victor, particularly as it is now. I'm not sure on the progression through the 1930s and where that sat, but as it's expounded today.
Yeah, let's touch on that. But building, too, on those early ones. I mean, I think I love. There's a quote from Chrysostom, and I think this is about the fourth century that this was said. That kind of wraps that up, all these different aspects that Christ achieved, that says that for the cross destroyed the enmity of God towards Mandev, brought about the reconciliation, made the earth heaven, associated men with angels, pulled down the citadel of death, unstrung the force of the devil, extinguished the power of sin, delivered the world from error, brought back the truth, expelled the demons, destroyed temples, overturned altars, suppressed the sacrificial offering, implanted virtue and founded the churches like it.
Just pretty good quote. That's why I called him golden mouth. Yeah. Massive sweep, right? Yeah.
Of the kinds of things that are captured by this view, but. Alix, take us away. You wanted to talk about. Yeah, I was just going to pick up. Back up on sort of the track of this model.
Throughout history, like we mentioned, those motifs we've just discussed, the ones of the cosmic nature of the model, were very much the motifs that were spread throughout church history. And then I guess we get all the way through the reformation period, where some of those motifs keep hanging on a bit. And then I. I think it's fair to say throughout most of that period of history that substitutionary and more penal substitutionary models were the more dominant models in the western church, at least. And satisfaction models were more dominant for a while.
But, yes, by the time we get to the 1930s, an important year for the Christus Victor model, it made a bit of resurgence, and that's because he got a name. Yes. This old mate came along. His name is Gustav Owlin. I'm sorry, to any swedish people if I'm saying that incorrectly.
But you should be. If anyone's going to get that right, it should be me. It should be me. Sorry, my wife. If you're listening who is swedish, you feel free to type an email in response to this podcast.
If that's incorrect, please don't mention it over breakfast or anything. Just type an email. Yeah, just an email would be great. Thanks. Gustav Allen was a swedish bishop during the lived from about 1880 all the way through to about 1980, and he was switch bishop during those years.
And he was the one who really propelled this model back into popularity in the more modern period. And he wrote a book called Christus Victor that was published in 1930. And then a lot of actually later works as well, which responded to a lot of criticism of the model and kind of appropriated it a bit. So a lot of what we take from the Christus Victus Victor model today is based on his later works as well. But something that Alan emphasized very heavily in relation to the cosmic nature of Christus Victor was the idea of the drama of scripture, and scripture being a holistic story from start to end.
And the importance of that when we think about the atonement as not just an isolated event that happened during the gospels, but as an event that is intricately and, like, inseparably associated with creation and with the end as well. So it's very important to remember creation. And the fall also ties in, and we'll get some of this with recapitulation episodes later on. And second Adam and all that kind of stuff. But Jesus is life, and his mission is tied into the drama of scripture.
And the conquering of death and evil is like the main plot line of scripture, and it comes to its head, the turning point at the moment of atonement, with the death of Jesus and his resurrection. Yeah, and this is one of the kind of arguments why it kind of went out of vogue, particularly from the reformation on, as a more consolidated sense, is that that makes the most sense of what the people at the time would have needed and experienced, and particularly for the early church under roman rule and that kind of thing. This idea that I'm not so worried about my individual sin, but corporately, as a group of people who follow God, we are being oppressed, that bad stuff is happening to us. And whatever the cause, we need to be liberated from this. And so there's a certain element of that was the understanding right through.
But when kind of hit that modern era and we hit the enlightenment, it changes from this corporate to individual issue. And so I think that's what they're regathering post kind of that the 18 hundreds and all that happened in that kind of industrializations period. Yeah, very cool. All right, well, we might take a quick little break and then we'll dig in into some of the scriptural bases for where this comes from, which, you know, I think we've already alluded to a little bit, and we might even dig into some of the pitfalls, some of the shortfalls, some of the criticisms that have been levelled against this particular model. I'll be back in a second.
So we've already touched on this a little bit, at least a high level, talking about the grand sweep of the biblical narrative and how that sort of this view draws that out. But specifically, what are some of the passages that talk about, you know, the victory of Christ achieved at the cross, you know, is, I think, important to make sure we put that foundation. And for me, the archetypal one is the one we spoke about in our previous episode, which is the back end of one corinthians, chapter 15. Yes. Which is.
I'll start. You've got it there? Yeah, I've got it here. I'll start at verse 54. So it says, when the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true.
Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, o death, is your victory? Where, o death, is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
That's a good one. It is a good one. Victory keyword. Yes, it works. But specifically that victory that is achieved through Christ over death.
We also read Galatians one, particularly picking up in verse three, grace to you and peace from God our father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. And then the other one that kind of particularly is quite resonant if we think about Christ versus the powers and the powers of this present evil age, as Paul kind of alludes to, is colossians chapter two. And he's talking about how we're alive in Christ, that we shouldn't be taken captive by empty deceits and human traditions and things like that. Talks about in verse nine.
For in him, Jesus, the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. And you've been filled in him. In him also, you are circumcision. In him also, you were circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, putting off the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ. This is where it kicks in, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you're also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead, and you who are dead in your transgressions, and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our sins by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands, which he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Here it is, the key, a key verse. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over them in him. So, as we'll find out later, there's a record of debt, which becomes a pretty significant piece in a different model. But this one kind of finishes with this kind of idea of the triumph of Christ over the powers that they've been disarmed, that, like death, all forces that are in opposition to God and his kingdom are now kind of defeated. And that particularly sits in the New Testament context of Caesar.
I think often we will lose the quite polemical position that Paul and the gospel writers take, that every time they say, jesus is Lord, that's yours, Caesar. And that's a significant piece which we miss contextually, I think. And I think it's a really important point that, and this probably comes out when we get to some of the other models, is that when it comes to these verses that talk about victory and this coming of the kingdom, other models tend to reckon with those verses by default, kind of treating them like metaphor. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, we've won the scripture. But I guess what this model is pulling out in that it's a very real battle.
It might be spiritual, but it is a very real battle that is going on that Christ has triumphed through and that has implications for the real physical world as well. Yeah. And when we get to talk about its kind of present incarnation, there's a lot of stuff in that which has quite important. It has a weight in how we live ecclesiologically today, like we talked about last time. Yeah, well, there's a verse towards the end of acts when Paul is on trial yet again and giving a bit of testimony.
He's the guy who gets on trial and he recounts his Damascus road experience, his experience seeing a vision of the risen Christ and what Christ says to him. And this is in chapter 26, starting at verse 17, this is Jesus speaking, says, I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I'm sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me. So, yeah, there's that. Not dualism, but there's both sides of the sword in that statement.
There is both a physical real, in this case political, but in so many other means. Physical sense of rescue and of victory, as well as that spiritual, which leads, I suppose, into a more eschatological sense, where we're forgiven of our sins and welcomed into eternal life. Yeah, I think it's. Well, in my reading of these passages didn't come up significantly, but I think it does paint a scriptural picture of the idea that Christ is victorious and is still victorious in an ongoing, permanent way, is when we get to John's revelation, how he portrays his experience of encountering the risen Christ. So in chapter one, there's the phenomenal passage where he says, verse twelve.
I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands. In the midst of the lampstands was one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, refined in the furnace.
His voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars. From his mouth came a sharp two edged sword. And his face was like the sun shining in full strength. So very much the kind of the deified king kind of model there.
Justice, you know, even the capacity for strength might overcome military strength, even with the sword idea, which is then echoed in chapter 19. When we see him come again as the heavens are opened. There's the white horse. The one sitting on it is called faithful and true. And in righteousness he judges and makes war.
His eyes are like a flame of fire. On his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows of himself. His clothing are robed in blood, and the name by which he is called is the word of God kissing on. He's got a sword in his mouth and all this kind of stuff. So definitely as John is bringing to a close that big arc of scripture, the picture of Jesus we see as the Christ, as the enthroned one who's overcoming and his kingdom is breaking in, is fairly obvious.
Yeah. There's also the other pictures in revelation on this eschatological theme of the lamb or Jesus still bloodied and still, like with Marx as well, which is feeds a lot into the christus victor kind of outlook of the whole life of Jesus, or the whole picture as well, in that cosmic battle. I think it was a quote from Alan, but maybe it was just from something I was reading where they were talking about how the cross by itself, without the resurrection, is just the cross of martyrdom, but the cross with the resurrection and the picture of Jesus still with the marks, but reigning as king, like in those other pictures, shows a full and complete victory over death and conquering and vanquishing of those powers, rather than just a ransom paid or a price paid, but also a reigning and conquering. That's a good one to unpack. Because I think sometimes when we look at this model and this idea of Christ's victory and our participation in that victory over the powers and over the world, and we talk about spiritual warfare, there can be a tendency to become a little bit militaristic and muscular.
And especially when we start to apply that to our sort of everyday, real situations, it can inspire an unhealthy kind of boldness at times. But remembering that the victorious lion is also the lamb that was slain, I think is a good corrective. That the Christus Victor model is Christ who conquers through humility, who conquers through servility, effectively. Exactly. Which I think is quite critical.
Yeah. Because I think the marching orders tend to make it militaristic, which it's nothing for the redeemed people of God is Matthew 28, which is go and do all that I've taught you to do. And at that point, we didn't have this picture of the sword in the mouth, the blood dipped robes. We had the crucified and arisen Messiah with holes in his hand, with hole in his side. And so the way that we as his followers were instructed to go was in that exact mode.
And so that's going low, turning the other cheek. Forgiving and forgiving. And forgiving and forgiving. And so, you know, been. Sounds like there's a sermon in that we've been preaching through the sermon on the mount.
And just up to the part where I have to preach on anger management and realizing that everything that Jesus asks his followers to do, he's about to carry out in Matthew's version of the passion. So, you know. Yeah, it's really interesting. He doesn't do anything that's not carried out by himself. Yeah.
That paradox is definitely not lost on the early church fathers. I was reading a lot of their stuff where they're very conscious of the militaristic imagery because it's a Caesar thing. Yeah. It's very contextual for them as well, and for a lot of what hebrew culture was expecting to come in their form of a messiah. And yet the point is not lost on a lot of the church fathers, that Jesus subverts the model and the militaristic symbolism is very intentional, then, that it actually requires death in order to conquer rather than some kind of show of might or power.
Well, I guess you get the power through the death, but physical, human strengthen. Yeah. Which is interesting in some of the more very recent kind of expressions of this. It's. One commentator said, this is a very salient point for the western church to be thinking, are we conquering by force, or are we conquering by the testimony of the slain lamb who's overcome?
Which is. Oh, yeah, that stinks. It also feeds into the point that particularly strong in this view and Alan's work is the idea that God is not in competition with any other powers. He's already won the battle. And in that cosmic view, God doesn't need to prove through a show of might or force or to use these words lightly, but he doesn't need to win a battle.
In a sense, obviously, we see those pictures in scripture and those words are used, but he doesn't need to. He's already won the war, and he had already won from the very beginning. And so this is just the fulfillment of that. All right, well, are there any sort of pitfalls, challenging aspects to this theory, ways in which it maybe doesn't quite work or perhaps needs a little bit of further development? Sounds like you're on board, Jo.
But I suspect that Alex might have been waiting for this bit. No, to be fair, it's hard to talk about one model in isolation, especially without. Because, like we've talked about before, and you'll see through the rest of the episodes that there's many different aspects of each model that we can take. I wish we could create a supermodel out of them, or we could call it a supermodel. Supermodel.
We should have called the series that supermodel making of a supermodel. There's obviously, you can take many different cherry pick. Nice points out of each model, but then that would destroy their inherent value in and of themselves. But I think maybe we should first just establish quickly what Christus Victor holds in terms regarding satisfaction, because it's quite a different opinion. So first define satisfaction for people.
Satisfaction is, well, simply the idea that, and kind of with substitution as well, that there's something, a ransom, a debt, that needs to be paid to either God or Satan. So for those listening last week, this idea of propitiation kind of accords quite closely with satisfaction. Yes, in the view of Allen, God's justice does not need to be satisfied in order for him to lovingly save his creation. Allen is very big on the idea that any form of satisfaction would therefore put a condition on God's justice and then takes it out of the biblical picture of God's love. Make of that what you will.
We're not going to say opinions on that, but maybe we will. But we might. But I gathered that subsequent sort of developers of this model have not agreed with that, have not agreed with that. And he did, to be in fairness to him, later responded to those critiques and changed his views a little bit. But he's very big on God loves and forgives freely, and there is no human condition that prompted that.
I suppose that the difficulty, and probably the difficulty with the Christus Victor model, if it was all you had as a model, is that it then doesn't really satisfyingly deal with the issue of sin, because it's hard to see. It's hard to see how sin, particularly at an individual level, but even at a corporate level, is dealt with. If the salient point, if the key point is the victory of Christ over death, like how is an individual's death, I suppose, acquitted or forgiven? It's more the method isn't the exact method of mechanism. And if you follow then all of this earlier expression, well, God can just forgive, then the question follows, why did you need to do it through Jesus at all?
And that is one of the major criticisms. The method of the atonement is not identified. Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, I think that is definitely, and it's interesting reading, nothing to do with either this or what you're just talking about, but as you read other theologians wrestling with the atonement and concepts associated with it, particularly as I was reading Bart on this, and I've just literally scratched the surface of such a deep well. So I have friends who are Bart scholars who have PhDs in Barth who they say they know nothing about him.
So I'm gonna be very, very careful where I tread. But one of the challenges is that, and he talks about this, that we need to define all of these concepts biblically, not culturally, and then write our cultural understanding of justice, of all of these things back onto God, because depending on what point in history you're at, you have a very different picture and understanding. And so I think one of these, what gets really confusing is that we need to work out the paradigm that's sitting in and does it satisfy itself in its paradigm, which in that sense, it's selfdevelop kind of contained. It's not contradictory in and of itself, which I think, Alan, maybe as people have kind of developed it further, the breaking, the killing, the overcoming, the victory over sin and death is effective and done. And so now, as people participate in the kingdom where death no longer reigns, they are participating in the place where it is able to be defeated because the king has defeated it.
So that then doesn't speak to the mechanism. How do I participate then in the kingdom? And there's other ways around that. But in saying that most people, and this is for me, why I lean towards embracing this not alone, but as a kind of umbrella concept, is that there is room for that dealing with punishment and the someone standing in the place of, like, there's plenty of room for pretty much every other form of atonement and certain mechanisms. Yeah.
As explaining what. How this part works. Whereas most of the other models don't seem to make anything of Jesus overcoming Satan and the powers. It's actually my personal salvation journey and how I'm. So they seem to major on the mechanism.
Yes. Not the worldview. This is the worldview without necessarily clarity on the mechanism, which is why I think they sit like hand in glove in a lot of ways. Yeah. That doesn't really answer the question, but I think.
No, I don't think you can answer. That's why I find it satisfying at a level, no pun intended, that it doesn't create ways that we must exclude other points of view that actually makes sense of the breadth of scripture and what needs to happen to make sense of scripture and to apply it to the community and to the cosmos and to the individual without having to give any of those things up. But, yeah, I fully agree. I think the. Not as Alan necessarily presented it, but as right and Boyd and others.
Yeah, I think the future representations are better. And I fully agree as a starting point, it is the model that most effectively presents. This is a cosmic battle against powers and principalities, and they have been overcome and conquered. And then you can fit a mechanism from a variety of others, most of the others, into that overarching picture. Yeah.
Still addresses the cosmic and all of Jesus life, the Old Testament. Very well. All right, well, where does that leave us then? Just have to listen to the next episode. I've got a few more weaknesses.
Yeah, no, no. And we do because I just want to, I want to hear those. And I think unpacking those are really helpful for us. And then there's some kind of modern application, which for us as a church community is actually super helpful. But, yeah, go.
Okay. And once again, let's clarify. Some of this is Alan's presentation, and so future scholars read them as well because this model's been appropriated. Well, I think in recent years too, a bit of criticism that's headed the model's ways, especially as Alan presented it, is that it robs a little bit of the vicarious humanity of Christ and the significance that that plays in the model. Because like you mentioned before, Chris, if the mechanism is not really identified in the model, then why didn't God, just in his omnipotence and already won the battle, snap his fingers and do away with, so just quickly get people to handle on that vicarious humanity.
Yes. Like, what does that mean? You go, like, I'll go. The incarnation is almost necessary. Yeah.
Yes, yeah. Like Jesus or God incarnate, as Jesus became fully man and fully God in order to conquer death. And a lot of the other atonement models, for example, put a lot of emphasis on Jesus humanity participating in the atonement. And then this also leads onto questions about how we, as followers of Christ, participate in his death and resurrection. And a lot of that is absent from Alan's presentation in Christus Victor.
Yeah. Which is you have to go a little further afield. Yeah, yeah. Which is, I think, helpful. Yeah, very good.
So any other weaknesses?
None that I think are probably worth talking about without some of the other atonement models. I think that's the main one where it's difficult. I think it's really easy to read it and make our own conclusions about how the effects for us living now post with the Holy Spirit. And I think that's quite easy. But in terms of actually participating in that sacrifice and being resurrected with Christ, it's harder to discern in this model.
I think that's the main one for me. And I think there's some in the way that the Bible is read all as metaphor and symbol, and I love that. But even for this way, it can be quite a heavy emphasis and there's not a lot of rational argument. So. Yeah, so application then?
Yeah. So I think this has been really impacting for me in particularly in kind of my faith life and then how we see that as a community and how this bringing a healthy dose of this perspective into our church life. So our ecclesiology or our praxis, depending on how many nerdy words you want to fit in per minute. Praxis, good word. Yeah.
Is that. And I've seen, seen this borne out by kind of high church Anglicans right through to non denominational evangelicals, right into pentecostal churches and leaders, is that it seems to be that as God is working in the world, particularly outside of the western church, but also including the western church, one of the most significant ways that he's working is the breaking in of the kingdom of God into the places of darkness. And so we're seeing, and that expressed in the ways that Jesus did it in the gospels happening in people's lives today. So physical healing, emotional restoration and reconciliation in oneself, a deliverance, like all of these things. And so seeing that practice, which starts to help understand, like for me again, we didn't mention this in the scriptural piece, but stuff like in Isaiah 53, where, you know, by his wounds we are healed.
Christus Victor model seems to start to apply the outcomes of the atonement into people's lives in a holistic way, spirit, soul and body. And so having a model of what Jesus did on the cross, that brings the opportunity to express that, and I would say Matthew 28 includes in it the instruction to do the things that Jesus did in his earthly ministry. Christus Victor as a model, seems to have scope for that kingdom activity centered around the Holy Spirit, where some of the others go. We're just thinking about how you deal with your sin and brokenness and be reconciled to God as opposed to the communal aspects, seeing that flow in to what I think the phrase you said before, taking account of that kingdom aspect, whereas with other models, if you just had those, you might be tempted to have this mindset that salvation is something that's been achieved for me in the future. Now we have the now and not just the not yet of the kingdom.
Correct? Correct. Yeah. Having that foretaste and that inauguration really present. Yeah.
And I think that particularly from a church life point of view, it becomes a vibrant and vital expression of church because it's not a great. I've bought the ticket. I'll just sit in the waiting room until the ticket is punched and I move on to the next world or heaven or whatever the framework is. This seems to create a very clear space that we participate in the inbreaking kingdom. Now Christ is still winning victories over darkness and the powers right now.
Every person who finds life in him, everybody that is healed, every demon that is cast out, whatever, that's the participatory aspect of the kingdom, which I think creates a beautiful expression of community which prevents. I'm personally saved. He's going to get me out of here. When my times come, I'm all good. Hey, if you want to buy a ticket, you should get one.
But I already got mine. Thanks for coming. Which is a characterization, I know, but it can become the practical way people live. Whereas I feel like this empowers the believer to be about something. The kingdom that's on its way in, that started but isn't fully realized.
I couldn't agree more. I think the Christus Victor model is so, so good for positioning us as a church within the move of the kingdom and, like, tying us into that drama of scripture where on this side of the cross, Ephesians six, put on the full armor of God, because your battle is not against flesh, blood, power, and principalities. We have that same authority now with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead to carry out great commission, like Jo said, and be a part of seeing that restoration happen for other people as well. And I think, like you mentioned, really easy trap to fall into salvation or atonement as, like, a personal piety piece where it's all about, which is. It's not.
Not that. It's not. Not. That's the first step. But the Christmas Victor model does a great job at empowering people to see their salvation as.
Okay. We're also part of a bigger communal move that, and we can spread this restoration. You know, like tend and keep the garden and spread it. Yeah. Like, multiply.
Yeah. And spread that influence across the earth. Whereas I think some of the other models sometimes, maybe not disempowering is the wrong word, but, like, it can be more guilt focused or more. Yeah, that kind of focus, you know? Again, I think what, again, what is attractive to me about this is that it's a worldview, not a mechanism within another worldview.
And so you can fit mechanisms into it which satisfy the scriptural reference. I think what. It's really good, too, from a pastoral point of view. Yes. My pastoral hat on.
Alex can join me now. He's outnumbered. Pastoral assistant hat on pastor assistant to the pastor? No, pastoral assistant to the regional pastor. When you read something like Ephesians put on, because you don't battle against flesh and blood like this, gives me confidence that the victory is one.
I can look at Colossians too, and go, oh, he's put him to open shame. He's triumphed over those powers. So while there is still the mop up operations, I'm not unsure of the outcome, which I think creates a confidence as we deal with the brokenness of the world. When we look in the face of housing crises and illness and mental health concerns, like, you don't feel powerless, it's like, well, I'm all right, but I don't know if you're going to be all right. I did love how you put it before.
You said every one of those sort of outworkings of the kingdom is a small victory that Christ has won. And it's not just the physical healing or the deliverance from demonic forces, it's also the winning of repentance to Christ. It's the restoration of our sense of identity, of our relationships with other people. And so if anyone has ever tempted to be like, oh, you know, I wasn't delivered or I wasn't physically healed, it was just little old me coming to faith, like, that's an incredible victory that Christ has won over the powers that had kept us all enslaved until that point. Yeah, that's awesome.
I think it makes us both a resilient but also a grateful people. I think it's really powerful. Wonderful. Well, we might leave that one there, then. We've covered a fair bit of ground.
Yeah, it's impressive. Excellent. I think it'll be good. As we move forward, we can kind of tie in some of the things we've learned about each model into the next one. So you'll have a growing repertoire of terms and terminology and understanding that we'll be able to wrestle with some of these terms as we move forward.
Brilliant. We will wrap it up. Please come at us with your questions. This will be a reasonably significant series, so we'll see if we can make space for responding to some feedback or questions. Email.
Email. Do you know what? No, I was prompting you to say the email. Yeah, well, I know. Biblestreamsiverland.
Incorrect. Sorry. You can reach us by email@podcastsiverlifechurch.org. dot au dot. But at biblestreams on Facebook and Instagram.
And X. X. Yep. Come on, guys. Chris said Twitter before we recorded.
Before we recorded integrity, mate. Keep up with the times. If it's the threads and tick tock. We said last time, right. If it's not on the record, it's not on the record.
Yeah. So reach out with your questions because hopefully you have some, because we all do. Yeah. Many questions. Yeah.
That's why we've got so many different models and proposals. So we like them all. Yeah. Wonderful. Thanks, guys.